Great article ... as someone who absolutely browsed r/childfree at a particularly awful and self-centred time in my life, and has grown to have at least a little more self-awareness (I'm now a parent) I never actually disliked children. I hated the vulnerability and need in myself that I couldn't bear to acknowledge, and which babies are a potent reminder of. The more we are encouraged to be culturally self-sufficient and independent, the more confronting it is to be around a truly helpless being.
Honestly, once I had my son I spent about six months in a complete daze, where I just looked at everyone and thought "damn ... you were a BABY once!" No matter how brittle, or mean, or beaten down by life, everyone was a baby once. The more I can remember this, the more I can have empathy for people (including those that hate children).
Thank you so much for sharing your own reflections! I have absolutely considered being childfree myself, but like you never disliked kids. But I love your point about them being a reminder of vulnerability - I think that is so true!
I also love that you have come to a place of empathy for those who hate children - I'm not sure I'm there yet 😂
Oh, I'm definitely not there all the time! Ask me again when someone is looking daggers at me because my little lad is existing in public (often rather cutely, though I am of course biased).
Haha yeah I imagine it's so hard when someone's hating on your own kid!! I love your piece btw, thank you so much for sharing - have subscribed and look forward to reading more 🙂
This is why, as a childfree dude, I cannot find a space online that’s worthwhile. All child free forums are inundated with the most miserable, hateful people on the planet. Even the top “DINK” podcasts are quite hostile towards kids, not to mention, horribly materialistic (“without kids I can buy more for me!”). Really, a huge bummer.
That is so sad to hear! I think being childfree is such a valid choice - but how awful the childfree spaces are so overrun with that kind of negativity. I hope you find your people eventually!!
Sorry, how do I underline "their right to personhood" ten thousand times? I'm a parent and I get it, children can be annoying. So can adults. OMG.
You know how I can tell that society is not a friendly place for children? No public washrooms. Not even at children's parks.
Honestly, for the most part, I feel like most of the adults we meet everywhere are so friendly, including the barista who didn't rush my kid when he was doing math at the til (my son is 8).
Parent with crying child? Love telling them it's such a hard job and they're doing great at it.
And have you ever waved at other people's little kids? Kids LOVE THAT.
I really loved this, every single sentence. I think it shows a lack of maturity when people say they don’t like children. It never sits well with me. I’ve thought about this so much – like, what did children ever do except exist? And, like you say, we’ve all actually been children! The problem is, some grown-ups still are, and they perhaps hate to see that vulnerability in other, smaller creatures who might get more attention than them. That’s not the children’s fault, and this behaviour is so prevalent, as you say. It’s alarming, really.
It's perfectly fine to dislike being around children, provided you don't express that belief in word or action when you are around children. It's also graceless to express your dislike of children around someone who has them and is trying to cope. But around people who have chosen a child free life it's absolutely fine to express those views.
I personally dislike children devoid of context. The random nameless child screaming in a restaurant after a long day at work is deeply upsetting. But your friend's daughter getting upset and screaming is a little person who you know who deserves care.
I'm curious about your distinction between being able to tolerate your friend's kid screaming, but not a stranger's child. They're both children who are upset by something, why does it feel different to you?
I have the same reaction to a screaming child, no matter which child is screaming. But if it's a friend or relative’s child then I also have an obligation to them and a reason to put aside my frustration and annoyance. I might also have positive associations with the child to counterbalance the negative.
I think this depends a bit upon how well the children have been raised, but in large part I agree and that is why I feel inclined to think this might be a good spot to share an op-ed I’ve recently written here. I hope you don’t mind.
I agree, but given their brains aren't fully developed I feel they still need more allowances/understanding. Thanks for sharing your piece, I loved reading about parenting rules from an outsider's perspective, so interesting!
Such a great article I couldn’t pick a quote to highlight. As someone who’s chosen to be child free myself, it makes me uncomfortable how comfortable we are with hating kids (you hit the nail on the head with the “inconvenient” bit). The rhetoric around kids truly shows our lack of empathy as humans especially as parents publicly abusing their kids verbally/mentally/even physically is coming back.
Being a kid is HARD and we all seem to forget that they’re going through things too without the tools that we have. I have an abundance of nieces and nephews who can be overstimulating as hell (who I love to visit and then go home) but my God I wouldn’t wish to diminish their spark into submission (the very same painful childhoods we recall for ourselves with only self-centered empathy). Great read!!
I wonder how many of those people saying these things were made to feel loved during their own childhoods. Or if they were made to feel annoying, disgusting, etc.
I’m not sure it is socially acceptable to say you don’t like kids. That Reddit thread seems like a dark and scary place. Women saying they don’t want to have children get a ton of pushback, as if we don’t know ourselves are insulting the whole of society.
I totally agree that Reddit thread is the extreme, and women definitely get demonised for not wanting children (as someone who is still childfree at 32 I have felt this too!). But recently I have noticed a lot of open animosity for children online, in public spaces, and anecdotally from the experiences of my friends with kids and it really breaks my heart.
Mixed feelings about this tbh. I haven’t been on that Reddit forum (and don’t want to). I definitely don’t hate children, but I do hate the way they make me feel from a sensory perspective, when I have to endure them in public.
I’m not sure that’s necessarily the same thing as what you’re talking about, but it is my right to feel however I feel and I’m uncomfortable with that being moralised by others. However, I can appreciate that these feelings are never the child’s fault. I wonder how many of the people you are talking about are just not very good at articulating their actual reasons and feelings for disliking being around children, rather than actually “hating” them
I can relate. I don't "hate" children, on the other hand spending time with them is pretty far down my list of favorites. I simply don't relate to them for whatever reason and no it's not the result of suppressed childhood trauma. I like my own children, now that they are adults.
Completely agree. I knew that if I had kids I wouldn’t do a great job of parenting them when they were small as it would be horrendous for me and I’d hate it. It would exceed my capacity and I would resent them. But I really enjoy being around older kids and teenagers/ young people
Great article but it misses one crucial point. The people who desire children to such a degree, often cling on to a self-victimizing version of their own "childhood trauma". They are dissociated from the fact that they are in fact full-grown adults, well into their 20s/30s (teens can be forgiven because they are kids themselves). They latch onto to this identity so strongly that they think it gives them the license to hate on children, who they internally regard as their own demographic. These types show "empathy" when it is least desired, to the strangest of adults (like them), but will never bestow it on children. Because deep down they know that children are the truly innocent, vulnerable ones, while they can only LARP as one.
Completely agree with this, but the point of my piece was to state that it is unreasonable to hate children - regardless of the choices/mindset that may drive people in that direction. I totally agree that self-victimisation and possible childhood trauma plays a HUGE part in this, and love the way you outlined this, but I guess my main point was that that doesn't make it reasonable (as you seem to also agree with). Thanks so much for reading!
Agree with you on that. My comment focused on the psychological aspect of it- of the people who can't wrap their heads around reason. That indeed does not make it reasonable at all, which was the point of your article. Great piece!
Great article ... as someone who absolutely browsed r/childfree at a particularly awful and self-centred time in my life, and has grown to have at least a little more self-awareness (I'm now a parent) I never actually disliked children. I hated the vulnerability and need in myself that I couldn't bear to acknowledge, and which babies are a potent reminder of. The more we are encouraged to be culturally self-sufficient and independent, the more confronting it is to be around a truly helpless being.
Honestly, once I had my son I spent about six months in a complete daze, where I just looked at everyone and thought "damn ... you were a BABY once!" No matter how brittle, or mean, or beaten down by life, everyone was a baby once. The more I can remember this, the more I can have empathy for people (including those that hate children).
Thank you so much for sharing your own reflections! I have absolutely considered being childfree myself, but like you never disliked kids. But I love your point about them being a reminder of vulnerability - I think that is so true!
I also love that you have come to a place of empathy for those who hate children - I'm not sure I'm there yet 😂
Oh, I'm definitely not there all the time! Ask me again when someone is looking daggers at me because my little lad is existing in public (often rather cutely, though I am of course biased).
I wrote a little about it here, albeit as a bit of a fun listicle piece: https://paintingwithlightning.substack.com/p/adult-children-its-not-cute-anymore
Haha yeah I imagine it's so hard when someone's hating on your own kid!! I love your piece btw, thank you so much for sharing - have subscribed and look forward to reading more 🙂
Have subbed to both of you, hanging on to coat tails of the people who make the world better!
This is why, as a childfree dude, I cannot find a space online that’s worthwhile. All child free forums are inundated with the most miserable, hateful people on the planet. Even the top “DINK” podcasts are quite hostile towards kids, not to mention, horribly materialistic (“without kids I can buy more for me!”). Really, a huge bummer.
That is so sad to hear! I think being childfree is such a valid choice - but how awful the childfree spaces are so overrun with that kind of negativity. I hope you find your people eventually!!
Sorry, how do I underline "their right to personhood" ten thousand times? I'm a parent and I get it, children can be annoying. So can adults. OMG.
You know how I can tell that society is not a friendly place for children? No public washrooms. Not even at children's parks.
Honestly, for the most part, I feel like most of the adults we meet everywhere are so friendly, including the barista who didn't rush my kid when he was doing math at the til (my son is 8).
Parent with crying child? Love telling them it's such a hard job and they're doing great at it.
And have you ever waved at other people's little kids? Kids LOVE THAT.
Low hanging fruit for creating kindness and joy.
The “low hanging fruit for creating kindness” is SO important!!
This. Is. So. True. If we think that respect is a universal human right that we all are entitled to, why are kids somehow exempt?
THIS 🙌🏻
I really loved this, every single sentence. I think it shows a lack of maturity when people say they don’t like children. It never sits well with me. I’ve thought about this so much – like, what did children ever do except exist? And, like you say, we’ve all actually been children! The problem is, some grown-ups still are, and they perhaps hate to see that vulnerability in other, smaller creatures who might get more attention than them. That’s not the children’s fault, and this behaviour is so prevalent, as you say. It’s alarming, really.
It's perfectly fine to dislike being around children, provided you don't express that belief in word or action when you are around children. It's also graceless to express your dislike of children around someone who has them and is trying to cope. But around people who have chosen a child free life it's absolutely fine to express those views.
I personally dislike children devoid of context. The random nameless child screaming in a restaurant after a long day at work is deeply upsetting. But your friend's daughter getting upset and screaming is a little person who you know who deserves care.
I'm curious about your distinction between being able to tolerate your friend's kid screaming, but not a stranger's child. They're both children who are upset by something, why does it feel different to you?
I have the same reaction to a screaming child, no matter which child is screaming. But if it's a friend or relative’s child then I also have an obligation to them and a reason to put aside my frustration and annoyance. I might also have positive associations with the child to counterbalance the negative.
Interesting! Thanks for sharing 🙂
I have no problem with children. It's usually the parents who are the problem when there are problems.
dont like noise/smells/dirt/activity?
simple, live far from civilization.
Not all grouches and hermits are bad people.
Im an asshole and quite proud of it.
its actually okay to be an asshole.
#assholepride
I think this depends a bit upon how well the children have been raised, but in large part I agree and that is why I feel inclined to think this might be a good spot to share an op-ed I’ve recently written here. I hope you don’t mind.
https://thequillandmusket.substack.com/p/the-immutable-laws-of-parentingfrom?r=4xypjp
I agree, but given their brains aren't fully developed I feel they still need more allowances/understanding. Thanks for sharing your piece, I loved reading about parenting rules from an outsider's perspective, so interesting!
Of course, and thank you; 🙏🏻
Such a great article I couldn’t pick a quote to highlight. As someone who’s chosen to be child free myself, it makes me uncomfortable how comfortable we are with hating kids (you hit the nail on the head with the “inconvenient” bit). The rhetoric around kids truly shows our lack of empathy as humans especially as parents publicly abusing their kids verbally/mentally/even physically is coming back.
Being a kid is HARD and we all seem to forget that they’re going through things too without the tools that we have. I have an abundance of nieces and nephews who can be overstimulating as hell (who I love to visit and then go home) but my God I wouldn’t wish to diminish their spark into submission (the very same painful childhoods we recall for ourselves with only self-centered empathy). Great read!!
This comment is so beautiful and spot on I can't pick a favourite bit! Suffice to say YESS to all of this! Thank you for sharing ☺️
I wonder how many of those people saying these things were made to feel loved during their own childhoods. Or if they were made to feel annoying, disgusting, etc.
I wonder this too!
I’m not sure it is socially acceptable to say you don’t like kids. That Reddit thread seems like a dark and scary place. Women saying they don’t want to have children get a ton of pushback, as if we don’t know ourselves are insulting the whole of society.
I totally agree that Reddit thread is the extreme, and women definitely get demonised for not wanting children (as someone who is still childfree at 32 I have felt this too!). But recently I have noticed a lot of open animosity for children online, in public spaces, and anecdotally from the experiences of my friends with kids and it really breaks my heart.
Mixed feelings about this tbh. I haven’t been on that Reddit forum (and don’t want to). I definitely don’t hate children, but I do hate the way they make me feel from a sensory perspective, when I have to endure them in public.
I’m not sure that’s necessarily the same thing as what you’re talking about, but it is my right to feel however I feel and I’m uncomfortable with that being moralised by others. However, I can appreciate that these feelings are never the child’s fault. I wonder how many of the people you are talking about are just not very good at articulating their actual reasons and feelings for disliking being around children, rather than actually “hating” them
“When I have to endure them in public”
Imagine saying that about any other person group and trying to justify it.
Imagine trying to police the feelings of strangers on the internet youve never met and have no understanding of. Seems pretty pathological to me
I can relate. I don't "hate" children, on the other hand spending time with them is pretty far down my list of favorites. I simply don't relate to them for whatever reason and no it's not the result of suppressed childhood trauma. I like my own children, now that they are adults.
Completely agree. I knew that if I had kids I wouldn’t do a great job of parenting them when they were small as it would be horrendous for me and I’d hate it. It would exceed my capacity and I would resent them. But I really enjoy being around older kids and teenagers/ young people
Great article but it misses one crucial point. The people who desire children to such a degree, often cling on to a self-victimizing version of their own "childhood trauma". They are dissociated from the fact that they are in fact full-grown adults, well into their 20s/30s (teens can be forgiven because they are kids themselves). They latch onto to this identity so strongly that they think it gives them the license to hate on children, who they internally regard as their own demographic. These types show "empathy" when it is least desired, to the strangest of adults (like them), but will never bestow it on children. Because deep down they know that children are the truly innocent, vulnerable ones, while they can only LARP as one.
Completely agree with this, but the point of my piece was to state that it is unreasonable to hate children - regardless of the choices/mindset that may drive people in that direction. I totally agree that self-victimisation and possible childhood trauma plays a HUGE part in this, and love the way you outlined this, but I guess my main point was that that doesn't make it reasonable (as you seem to also agree with). Thanks so much for reading!
Agree with you on that. My comment focused on the psychological aspect of it- of the people who can't wrap their heads around reason. That indeed does not make it reasonable at all, which was the point of your article. Great piece!
I appreciated your perspective, thanks for sharing 🙂